Swingers, Swapers, Polygamy, Polyandry and Open Marriage
Be it on TV (e.g. Big Love, Swingtown), the internet, the newspapers, church, the park, at work, or Walmart, it seems everywhere we look these days we run into people who are experimenting with various sexual and relational extra marital activities within their marriages. People have been cheating and destroying their marriages by having affairs for as long as their have been marriages. In the last few years we've become increasingly aware of something else that has apparently been going on for at least a few decades as well. It seems that these are mutually agreed upon affairs in generally strongly committed and loving marriages. My wife has expressed openness to trying this. I have to admit to being a little curious about it myself...but not so much that I'd risk my marriage. We are curious what other people think. We are especially interested in knowing what people think of it who have actually tried or are currently doing this. What sort of experience (good or bad) have you had?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on -
Thought I would check back in on the discussion. Thanks, Michael for your responses. I mulled this over a bit more and some things came to mind. Hope you don’t mind a few more thoughts on the subject.
As to your first point about how that sex wasn’t the aspect that makes your marriage relationship unique, I would still say that it does. Even though there were times in your marriage when you went without sex, you still chose not to have sex with others. There was still the potential of sex within your relationship.
I wanted to throw out some other thoughts as well. Say that you do go forward with this then you must take into consideration all the factors. There is an assumption that equally for each of you that the sex would be wonderful and live up to every fantasy that you have had. But playing devil’s advocate here, your wife and friend have sex and it is absolutely amazing. You and friend’s wife have sex and it’s ho-hum. Do you stop?
Now your wife has a gleam in her eye and a skip in her step. She can’t wait to get together with your friends again. So do you go through with it because you are just so happy for her but it’s not all that great for you? Can you say you wouldn’t have some feelings of jealousy or resentment?
What if you tell the friends that you aren’t sure about this now and want to stop. Are there hard feelings because of some perceived rejection?
Or say your out of town on a weekend with the friends and your just not in the mood, do you say you 3 go ahead I’m going to bed? Do you float off to sleep knowing they are having a great time without you?
When I brought up about boundaries, I was thinking about boundaries as a couple. Does it become all right for your friend and wife to cuddle on the couch because you can cuddle with his wife? After all, you are having sex with each other.
When I spoke of the emotions, I understand that right now there is an excitement and thrill to this. A feeling of infatuation, which is wonderful. After all, you have been married for 26 years and there is this possibility of sex with someone else without all the guilt because you have given each other permission. But try to think beyond that to some what-ifs. Feelings of jealousy or perhaps feeling devalued in the relationship.
Also to I wanted to address something else. There seemed to be a point in an earlier post about the strength of marriage. I hope you don’t feel pressured to try to prove the strength of your marriage by having sex with others.
Hope I given a bit more food for thought.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Brandt on
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Thanks again Tammy,
We don't mind at all! We are thrilled that you and others are giving us more things to think and talk about. BTW, for you or any others to whom we engage in conversation...please don't think that if we argue with you that we necessarily disagree with you. We may entirely agree with you but we are trying to get ahead of the curve in the argument. If we carry your argument forward to someone else (most likely our friends -- or maybe even our own indecisive minds), and then they comeback with a counter point, we want to know where any holes in our thought might be, what their counter is likely to be, and how we in turn might defend the thought, and so on. We are trying to be honest with each other how we feel (and honest with any who are joining along with us in this decision process). To that end let's look at the next step in the discussion.
You said: Even though there were times in your marriage when you went without sex, you still chose not to have sex with others. There was still the potential of sex within your relationship.
You are correct in your premise and argument, but your conclusion takes a disconnected skip in logic. For example: During those sexless patches in our marriage, at that same time we didn't go fishing together either, nor did we go fishing with our friends or anyone else. And there was still the potential of fishing within our relationship. Same is true for bowling, hunting etc... While to us sex is not in the same universe as these activities, if you hold that sex can be recreational, then you could argue sex (like other recreational activities) need not be central to what makes a marriage relationship unique.
...take into consideration all the factors. There is an assumption that equally for each of you that the sex would be wonderful and live up to every fantasy that you have had.
It isn't really our assumption that sex would be equally wonderful for both of us if we were with out friends. We are sure it would be exciting and fun for us, but when we go to a movie or eat out at a new restaurant or something, we don't both usually enjoy the movie, food, atmosphere 100% equally, but we usually do both land in the same camp as far as I enjoyed it or not. Even if neither of us like the food or movie, we still enjoy "not liking" it together. And it will generate conversation between us no matter if it was good or not. And the conversation we do like. We both are sorta heady and intellectual. (hard to tell eh?). And for SURE we don't expect "sleeping" with our friends will fulfill every fantasy we've ever had. For one our fantasy list is long. Seems like every time we try something on it the list just gets longer not shorter. No we aren't putting all our eggs in one basket with this. We have talked about what our expectations would be, what the boundaries might be, what to do if one of us gets uncomfortable with it all etc... Also, and this might seem a bit strange, our fantasy in this is not in our own sex with a new person. Sure that would be exciting too, but the real thrill for both of us (yes Fernando in this we both do actually see this the same way), our thrill would be in watching our spouse have sex with someone else. I know that seems sort of weird, but so is this whole conversation. Once you cross a line of assumptions in your mind, it's interesting what new possibilities open up. We expect our best fun and greatest excitement would be if our partner had their world totally rocked. The more fun it is for each of us personally, the more it excites us maritally. Conversely, if one of us isn't having fun personally with their interaction, the one who IS having a good time should attempt to have an EVEN better time, so that the one who isn't having a good time will get the pleasure of the other getting pleasure. That is how we deal with each other already. And we've agreed that that would be even more so if we do this. If one of us has a headache or (rarely these days) isn't in the mood, we will do our best to give the other person a good time (not the minimal amount to get by like we did in the old days). If I have a headache, I may not get as much enjoyment out of the sex itself, but I get enjoyment from her getting enjoyment from me. It has been a real win-win formula for us. We believe it would transfer into this particular swap situation.
... wife and friend have sex and it is absolutely amazing. You and friend’s wife have sex and it’s ho-hum. Do you stop?
Something would have to go seriously wrong for us to stop at that moment. Lack-luster sex on one side and barn-burner sex on the other is not something seriously wrong. Woody Allen said something like, "Sex is like Pizza. Even when it's bad, its still pretty good." Plus I think we addressed it above pretty well. If the my honey and my buddy were shaken the place and I suddenly couldn't perform, I'd use my mouth and hands etc.. to the best of my ability and try and bring my buddy to satisfaction. Then I picture we'd cuddle together and watch our spouses continue to go at it. Maybe it would heat us up to try it again. If it were really difficult overall for either of us, we have agreed we'd both stop, even it the other had a good time. And that goes the same for our friends. If they didn't both agree also, then that would be the end of it.
Now your wife has a gleam in her eye and a skip in her step. She can’t wait to get together with your friends again. So do you go through with it because you are just so happy for her but it’s not all that great for you? Can you say you wouldn’t have some feelings of jealousy or resentment?
You may be surprised, but we both have a gleam in our eyes and a skip in our step already. We both feel happy to be married to each other. Our sex life is WAY better than ever, even better than when we were young, and that was pretty good. We'd have to discuss it more at that time, but if it were great for her and just ok for me, I think we'd still go on with it. And vice-versa. But we don't know for sure. We'd have to talk it out As far as jealousy or resentment go, that would have been a big problem for us as recently as 8 years ago. It could have been a problem for reasons far more trivial that this topic too. We both had a few different issues. Those issues were hurting both of us. We did a round of marriage counseling and learned some things that have proved most helpful for keeping those weeds and roots out of our garden. I don't think that would be a problem, not sure of course. If it did become an issue, I am confident that we know how to work together to deal with it in a good way.
What if you tell the friends that you aren’t sure about this now and want to stop. Are there hard feelings because of some perceived rejection?
Our friends are persistent to a point, but in the end they're mostly Laissez-faire. They invited us to join them. They've talked to us at length about it. As long as we continue to discuss swapping partners with them, they will continue to pursue us. Since they found that we are considering taking them up and not just curious they've increased the intensity of our talks. But if we say no, they'll back off. If we say we really aren't interested then they would most likely stop trying. If we tried it with them once or for a period of time and then wanted to stop I'm sure they'd be fine. It's flattering to think they might be disappointed, but are both great friends and self-contained. They don't need us to feel good about themselves. But they do seem to think we'd all have a ball. "Resentment"? Not a chance.
...weekend with the friends and your just not in the mood, do you say you 3 go ahead I’m going to bed? Do you float off to sleep knowing they are having a great time without you?
Concerning "not in the mood" I don't know for sure. The times when we weren't in the mood, were almost always a warning signal that something was wrong. Never-the-less, hypothetically, if we had been sharing each other for a while and everything was working out, then I guess, if she wanted to have sex and I really wasn't in the mood then maybe I'd be thankful they took care of her. I really don't know how I'd feel. I doubt I'd float off to sleep. I'm more like the rock that plummets off to sleep. We have had several times when one of us didn't feel like doing what the rest of us planned to do. Tired, sick, headache, sunburn, stomach flu, kids, work, plumbing, etc... We've each had turns at being the one to stay behind and it wasn't a problem at all. Sometimes I (and I assume the rest of them too), would have rather been having fun with our group than whatever it was that kept me back, but it wasn't a problem. Granted the other three were just hanging out having fun, not having sex. The more I consider this question the more I think I wouldn't like it if my wife and friends were having sex and I couldn't be with them. Not because of jealousy or mistrust, but for some other reason: a feeling that I can't identify at this time. Great question - thank you. We certainly need to discuss this more as a couple and with our friends.
boundaries as a couple. Does it become all right for your friend and wife to cuddle on the couch because you can cuddle with his wife? After all, you are having sex with each other.
Wow! Another interesting question. You're exactly correct! If we are having sex with our friends, then Cuddling with them isn't a problem... it's foreplay or after-glow or flirting. Same goes for kissing, making out, petting etc... But the boundaries point is still very valid. Some things we do know at this time would cross our boundaries are secrecy, deception, misleading, or dishonesty. These are the sort of things that would be hurtful to us. But boundaries would still be an area we would need to better define.
...right now there is an excitement and thrill to this. A feeling of infatuation, which is wonderful. After all, you have been married for 26 years and there is this possibility of sex with someone else without all the guilt because you have given each other permission. But try to think beyond that to some what-ifs. Feelings of jealousy or perhaps feeling devalued in the relationship.
Excitement and thrill: clearly yes. When we simply talk about swinging with our friends, our hearts beat faster, and our sex with each other becomes MORE intense and passionate. I can feel it even in the soles of my feet. It feels like bungee jumping. We both like the feeling and so we talk about it a lot. Even that we CAN talk about it is a thrill. Ten years ago we wouldn't have dared to openly share our fantasy life with each other. Now doing so is a source of mutual pleasure. The pleasure has been multiplied as we find ways to fulfill each others fantasies. But this, for as hot as it is to us, is a different category. Even if w decide to do it, when it comes down to the wire, we might chicken out and keep it as a fantasy.
Infatuation: no. They are our friends. We love them and care for them, and are sexually aroused by them, but not infatuated. If anything we are maybe obsessing about the idea of it, not who we'd do it with.
Both they and we have been married 26 years, and the four of us were best friends together for even longer. Guilt isn't an issue for them in their swinging, nor would it be for us. Any guilt we have is over some of the ways we used to treat each other. Even that is more of a memory of guilt than actual guilt. If we were to experience guilt over swinging with each other it would have to be because something went very wrong and we hurt each other.
... the strength of marriage. I hope you don’t feel pressured to try to prove the strength of your marriage by having sex with others.
Our marriage has weathered many storms. That has given us toughness. We've done a few rounds of counseling and therapy. That has given us imporoved insight and skill. Our commitment, communication, love, understanding, acceptance and forgiveness have given us strength. Having sex with others wouldn't strengthen our marriage or prove our strength. We wouldn't do it out of pressure from others. The only way we'd do this is if we both agreed to it because we were certain it would give fun and pleasure, and that we were certain it wouldn't pose a risk to our marriage or hurt each other (or our friends) in any way. At this point we are pretty sure it would be way fun. But we are not yet positive that it can't hurt us.
Thank you so much for your food for thought.
--Michael
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Permalink Reply by D&C on
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For my wife and myself, sex involving other people is still about her and I having sex together. It's a sexual experience we share as a couple. We never meet or play without each other.
It has been a very intimate experience between us, largely because we have gotten to see and particiapte in each other's sexual expression. The focus is still us as a couple.
We only play in ways that are comfortable and nonthreatening for us both. IT's really deepened our relationship and brought us closer.
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Permalink Reply by valerie williams on
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l tried swinging its not fun on tv it looks like swingers are cool in real life they are usually nasty fat perverts like on a nude beach in real life they dont look hot like on tv also you can get stds or worse aids i dont believe in polygamy thats just weird trust me the fantasy on these trips is ALWAYS better left a fantasy
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Permalink Reply by Brandie Prine on -
Wow, all I have to say is that this the best advice you could ever give to someone. I will certainly share this with my friend who had considered swinging and no, not with me. If you are not a therapist Tammy, you should be!
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Permalink Reply by Trevor Matthews on
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I see that you (and I am not clear is that one or two people) write in the "we".
Before going any further try writing your stuff in the "I" and send the notes to your own partner. Your partner can then write back to you in the "I" from their perspective. Is your partner being kind indulging your views on this? How can you trust the answers?
My mother who grew up in a commune in the 1950s was always ammused when one partner was totally taken a back when say, the woman had a man on the side, and then when her partner took a woman on the side, then things seemed different. Huge arguments arose, sometime relationships recovered..... The funny thing was that others seemed not to learn from the experience. Her father who set up the commune, was the first to leave with his 3rd wife and family.
Good luck
TM
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Permalink Reply by Heather on
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Dear Michael,
My husband and I are not going to have kids in our lives. I think this is a big reason why our open sex life works. We also talk alot. At parties we admire other people, we like watching the beauty in sex.
In your case perhaps you might want to go to a party and just watch others at the party. Then go home and talk about it.
I would hate to look back at my life and regret that we never took the chance to at least try something different. I have been to a couple swinger parties is was an experience but truthfully i found most of the people to be ugly and not compatable with us. For us kink parties work because people tend to wear more clothes, corsets, thigh-high, stockings, high heels.
I also have the feeling from the responses that some of those who have responded are assuming you are having sex problems in your marriage. I am assuming your marriage is fine, you have talked about this idea and now are getting the nerve to really try it.
I do agree that if a couple has problems swinging is the fast track to ending the marriage.
Heather
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Permalink Reply by Michael Brandt on
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Hi Fernando,
Thank you for your comments. We do plan to respond to you soon.
M&M
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Permalink Reply by Trina Read on -
It's my observation that "open relationships" of all kinds are still very much under ground. Not accepted by society--it's ironic that cheating is still more acceptable. Yes, there's a lot more exposure but it really has made a dint in the average's person social values. I have many friends who swing and/ or are in polygomous relationships (I'm not one) and none of them dare to talk about it outside our circle of friends. (I have many stories about how telling the general public has led to personal and professional ruin.)
Things may change in ten years...but I'm not optomistic. It's something society in general has a hard time wrapping their heads around. Interstingly, one of the things that is titillating about being in an open relationship is that it is taboo. People love and get turned on by the danger.
Here's an interesting article about how open relationships are making their way into China: http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Sex-a-commonplace-in-Chin...
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Permalink Reply by Michael Brandt on
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Hi Dr. Trina,
Thanks for your observation. Without hurting anyone or endangering their anonymity, are you able to share any parts of the stories of your open-marriage, swinging, or polygamous friends? How they got into it? What sort of feelings they had to work through, any regrets or guilt or relationship problems that are directly attributable to their choices? Aside from the ones who were ruined by disclosing to the public, how has swinging been working out for your circle of friends? Any of them try it and drop it? What is the longest time any of the swinger coupes you know have been swinging? Do you know has swinging itself destroyed any of their marriages? Do they say swinging has saved, hurt, helped their relationship? Drawn them closer together or further apart?
Do you see any paralells between the current swinging/open marriage situation and the state of acceptance of homosexuality a few years ago? I wonder how that experiment is working for them.
And thanks for the article on swinging in China
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Permalink Reply by D&C on
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My wife and I have been exploring swinging for a few years, and we've found it to be great fun and has brought us closer together.
We'd be happy to discuss w/ you if you have specific questions.
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Permalink Reply by Brandie Prine on
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I'm so laid back and not much offends me, really but swinging just seems so wrong to me. Even if you guys agree to it, its still cheating no matter how you look at it. Are you guys religious? Please don't be mad at me or take what I'm saying as being rude but I just can't believe what I'm reading. I'm not even jealous but to know that my husband was touching another woman the way he touches me, makes love to me, etc, etc I would lose my mind. How can two people truly, I mean truly love one another and have the most respect for the other spouse when you are having sex with another person besides your spouse? I just don't get it.
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