Swingers, Swapers, Polygamy, Polyandry and Open Marriage
Be it on TV (e.g. Big Love, Swingtown), the internet, the newspapers, church, the park, at work, or Walmart, it seems everywhere we look these days we run into people who are experimenting with various sexual and relational extra marital activities within their marriages. People have been cheating and destroying their marriages by having affairs for as long as their have been marriages. In the last few years we've become increasingly aware of something else that has apparently been going on for at least a few decades as well. It seems that these are mutually agreed upon affairs in generally strongly committed and loving marriages. My wife has expressed openness to trying this. I have to admit to being a little curious about it myself...but not so much that I'd risk my marriage. We are curious what other people think. We are especially interested in knowing what people think of it who have actually tried or are currently doing this. What sort of experience (good or bad) have you had?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Michael Brandt on -
We wrote the above paragraph and invitation for discussion. And then 12 hours later Iwe read the rules for this forum:
"Hitched Media, Inc. intends for this forum to be a free exchange of ideas, advice and entertainment for married individuals. This is not a dating site, nor a place that endorses open marriage or the solicitation of infidelity..."
We hope our post doesn't get deleted. We are not endorsing open marriage or soliciting infidelity. But we do see this subject as a growing issue facing married couples and a choice that apparently many are considering; including us. If people share their experiences then this discussion could easily be the exact opposite of an endorsement of open marriage. Then again... maybe not.
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Permalink Reply by Brett Williams on -
Bad idea. I am a marriage therapist and have been working with couples for 20 years. I have seen dozens of couples who thought that an open relationship could add to their marriage and their marriages were destroyed. I believe we can only be attached to one person at a time. So as soon as you allow this kind of open marriage to take place the attachments become confused and it creates a disconnect from the primary relationship. No one has sex with someone else and then comes back to their relationship feeling like they have even more love for their spouse. "I love you so much more because I just screwed someone else." It does not work that way.
In 1972 Nena O'Neill and George O'Neill publication of their book Open Marriage, which sold over 1.5 million copies, popularized the idea swinging. But in 1977 O'Neill published a second book The Marriage Premise, in which Nena advocated sexual fidelity.
It does not work!
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Permalink Reply by Mrs. Childress on -
I have to agree with the poster above. I do divorce counseling and no good comes out of an ''open" relationship. VERY dangerous territory...
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Permalink Reply by Debbie King on -
Hi Mrs Childress.
I'm curious. I've heard of marriage counseling, but never divorce counseling. Is this something new that we should know about? My mom was a marriage counselor for seven years, and she's never heard of divorce counseling either - she said that divorce counseling is a bit like closing the gate after the horse has bolted.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Brandt on
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Thank you Brett Williams and Mrs. Childress for responding. We especially appreciate the suggested book "The Marriage Premise". We'll check it out. It could carry a lot of weight with us since they were actually doing that and changed their minds about it all. It isn't that your years as a marriage therapist and even your experience with open marriage couples don't matter to us, (they do), but as a counselor you pretty much deal with people who have troubles in their marriage that could come from many sources in their relationship. Freud who developed his psychoanalytic views and methods and views from examining only mentally sick people and superimposed his views on healthy people in ways that were accurate for the sick but distorted when applied to the healthy. In all the couples you've helped, dozens also happened to be in open marriages. Perhaps that group chose that route because they were already in trouble maritally and the extra-marital activities were a multiplying factor on something that was already bad. Maybe it's a distortion to take your findings with sick marriages and superimpose them on all relationships. I think to answer that fairly we'd need a large sample where we could determine the health of the relationship prior to their considering swinging and after as well. We've looked at some of the swinger site forums and advice columns and they seem to have thousands of couples who are happy with their choices. But they maybe just haven't yet reaped what they've sown either. Who knows?
Now we are on this site looking for people who are not necessarily trying to sell or justify their lifestyle choice but who can comment and add useful logical arguments and answers one way or the other.
In the meantime allow us to carry arguments back and forth. We took your argument:
I believe we can only be attached to one person at a time. So as soon as you allow this kind of open marriage to take place the attachments become confused and it creates a disconnect from the primary relationship. No one has sex with someone else and then comes back to their relationship feeling like they have even more love for their spouse. "I love you so much more because I just screwed someone else." It does not work that way.
and used it on our friends who have talked to us about swinging. They came back with two arguments. First they pointed out that we have more than one child and asked if we loved one more or less that the others. We had to admit we love them equally; sometimes differently from each other, but it isn't a zero sum game where loving another child subtracts from the rest. In fact their many differences and their various interactions with each other and us do create more opportunities to love them more and in distinctive ways. And having multiple children certainly makes all our lives more interesting.
On similar lines, our discussion also included fear, jealousy and insecurity. Their point to us was that while children may experience all these emotions, they are just confused or immature. But loving parents talk to them, explain things and reassure them of their love. "Mommy and Daddy love you and enjoy you so much and you make us so happy that we wanted you to have a little brother or sister to love you and for you to love too, and us too." Parents encourage their children to not be angry, insecure or jealous but to be happy for each when the other one gets something special or extra. They also teach them to identify when those feelings come up and to talk about them; not to ignore, stuff, stew or act on them in a negative way.
We said marital love is different from sibling or parent child love. They asked "How?" We haven't come up with a good answer yet. We are open to suggestions from readers here.
The second thing they argued back was that having sex and being in love are not the same thing. When they got us to agree with that statement, they reframed it as recreational sex. They talked about relationships between spouses, friends, acquaintances, or strangers. But they differentiated relationships from activities such as conversation, eating, playing, working, or having sex. They said, the relationship is the relationship. The activities are the activities. You can do what ever activities you want inside any of the relationships you want so long as all parties concerned are able to honestly and willingly consent. We said that sex was sacred, but they said, no, marriage is sacred. Sex is fun.
We talked a lot more and they have more ideas we'd like to put out to have people challenge, but that's enough for now. If you or anyone wants to respond, we are eager to hear all sides of this issue.
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Permalink Reply by Heather on
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I have to agree that swinging or involving others in our sex life from time to time has not destroyed my marriage. I don't think it solves pre-existing problems that you may have in the marriage but that may not be an issue for your relationship.
We have an open relationship to an extent. We have rules that we agreed on to keep ourselves happy and focused on our happiness together and not the other people we play with from time to time. We keep ourselves focused that we are doing this together to turn eachother on.
For us it is about exhibitionisum. The sex/kink parties we go to have many types of people.
More often we do not include others in our sex act but it turns me on to have someone watch. It helped us bring back the spark in our marriage to add the excitement. I think the change in the routine is also a big plus. The parties we go to are more kinky, not swinging so we do not have to worry about diseases as much.
The only thing I see as a potential hazard with poly sex is...sexual transmitted diesease.
STD's would be the main issue to be concerned with. Trust no one, check out potential people, get tested, use condoms, use dental dams, use gloves. If the couple is not willing to play safe they are not worth playing with. Having more people involved with your sex life can be a wonderful experience/experiment just be smart about it. Again it is also an experiment if it does not work for you stop.
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Permalink Reply by hitched on -
We've been monitoring this post closely and appreciate the honest discussion. But as mentioned, there is to be no solicitation. All soliciting posts have and will continue to be deleted. If this becomes an ongoing issue, this post will be permanently deleted. Thank you for respecting the rules.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Brandt on
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Dear Host,
Thank you for allowing this post. We are curious about what got deleted though. We understand about about your need to keep discussion within certain bounds for public posting on this site. If you are able, we would appreciate if sent the other deleted posts to us since we are honestly interested in hearing from many sources and viewpoints. We've checked out some of the swinger sites our friends suggested to us and read many of their forums, but they seem to be either designed to titillate or they are their attempts to justify their behavior or advise on how to do things "better" or some other such things. Sometimes there was honest discussion to educate and warn people when NOT to do it, but there wasn't as much of that. As we started saying above, we are seriously considering adding this to our marriage, but we have serious reservations as well. We thought a non-swinging site might be able to generate a more "balanced" in educational discussion. We don't want to shock, seduce, or drawn anyone into something (except maybe a discussion). It is helpful to us to listen to ideas be presented and to see what others have to say about those ideas. Back and forth. Argument and rebuttal. When we decide what we are going to do, we hope it is after being able to hear fair discussion that is challenged by other perspectives. This is important to us, and we imagine to others as well. We hope you allow this discussion to continue.
Thanks
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Permalink Reply by Heather on
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HI Michael,
I think the blog monitor was refering to another poster who simple left his phone number for those interested in contacting him to swing with him/her.
I do think swinging is only for people who have strong realationships. The people I know who "swing" do not have major marriage problems. They do not swing to fix their problems they do so because they are comfortable and want to add a bit of something different to their marriage.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Brandt on
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Thanks Heather,
Your comment are very similar to what our swinging friends said, which was, "Swinging is like having kids. You shouldn't do it to fix problems in your marriage, but because you love each other so much that you are strong enough and there is love enough and room enough to add this element. And that swinging and having children are alike in that they are both multiplying factors on your relationship strengths and weaknesses. If you are weak it makes it worse. If you are strong it enhances."
The experience of Brett Williams the marriage counselor above could be verifying the weakness part. Who knows? Maybe those troubled marriages were nearly doomed already for lack of fidelity, communication, trust, love, or whatever. Maybe they tried opening their marriage as a last ditch but failed attempt to save it. Maybe they were just looking for a way to cheat. Maybe they didn't have the maturity to deal with various feelings of insecurity or jealously or fear that came up. Maybe they didn't have the love or sensitivity to consider how their spouse felt. Maybe they weren't in agreement and one felt pressured to do it and the other didn't care.
I read one one forum that it is usually the guys idea and he looks for ways to drag her into a swinger party and once she has experienced it for about an hour then he has to drag her out. Some guys seem to expect it will be one way and it turns out differently. It might be tough for him to watch his wife get a great deal of attention from other men (and perhaps also from other women), while the other women are not all clamoring to be with him. If he isn't assertive he might sit alone all night and his wife is the center of attention. That makes her feel good about herself, but makes him miserable.
In our situation it would be different (at least that is what we are letting ourselves believe). We aren't talking about going to swinger parties (at least not for sex -- maybe just to observe). With us it is a couple who have been our best friends for over 20 years. We've vacationed with each other most of the time. All our kids are like brothers and sisters with each other (except a couple who seem to be having a budding romance of their own). We four adults regularly do things together e.g. travel for a concert or a game and share a hotel room (but so far never a bed). We don't walk around nude but we've seen each other naked enough that we don't think too much about it. We are all comfortable changing in front of each other. We share their hot tub and when the kids aren't around we do so sans clothing. Most importantly, we all four know each other very well, and we trust each other completely. We love each other. But we've never been sexual with each other. Or maybe I should say we've never had sex with each other's spouse and there is no infatuation or romance. However there has sometimes been attraction or even arousal at each others mates and sometimes a flirty sexual tension. On more than a few occasions over the years that led to some great sex with our own spouses in the same room at the same time but in different beds and with the lights out.
The sexual tension (which we all seem to enjoy) has grown since they've talked to us about trying switching beds.
So Heather, if you think swinging is only for people who have strong relationships, it seems to all four of us that that is the case. However, someone has suggested about swingers that if they could even consider having sex with someone beside their spouse of be o.k. with it if their spouse had sex with someone else then that is by definition a troubled marriage. We don't know. But thank you for your words.
Well, we aren't rushing into anything. If anyone reading these words has any advice or arguments one way or the other please share it with us here. Thanks.
-- M & M
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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This is an interesting discussion that I happened to stumble upon. I thought I would throw my two cents in. The way that I see it is that sex is what makes my relationship with my husband different from every other relationship that I have. I love multiple people but yet I don't have sex with them. I have sex with only him. If I started having sex with other people as well then what makes our relationship different. Sure, I love him but is sharing children and bills what makes it different? Where is the fun part? The sex.
Your friends make it sound like some kind of progression of your friendship. That we are such good friends that we should share everything with each other but should you? Will it make you closer friends but less closer as a couple? Where do the boundaries come in?
I totally understand the whole sexual tension which can be fun. I have been married to my husband for 18 years and sex can become routine so finding ways to add some spice will enhance it. But is sharing your spouse with your best friend the answer? There is alot of emotions that go on here. Not sure that I have added too much but perhaps some things to think about.
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Permalink Reply by Michael Brandt on
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Thanks for your 2 cents Tammy. We do appreciate your perspective. You challenged us with some excellent questions that caused us to think and talk some more. And that alone is worth much. Our answers in response are still a work in progress, but here is what we've come up with so far.
...sex is what makes my relationship with my husband different from every other relationship that I have. I love multiple people but yet I don't have sex with them. I have sex with only him. If I started having sex with other people as well then what makes our relationship different. Sure, I love him but is sharing children and bills what makes it different? Where is the fun part? The sex.
We totally get what you're saying. We've assumed, thought, said the same things for most of our marriage. Even though we were virgins when we married and have never had intercourse with anyone but each other, we can't say that our sexual activity together is the main element that makes our relationship unique from all our other relationships. If we had to identify one thing that makes our marriage relationship different it would probably have to be our commitment to each other. Our wedding vows (and our assumptions against divorce) have held us together through thick and thin. We both promised some things and we've both kept our promises. Usually. When we break our vows we talk about it, admit it, eat crow in humble pie, apologize, forgive and drive on. Neither of us can actually remember what the exact vows actually were anymore. We have probably changed some over the years what we in real life we continue to promise, but it has been by discussion and agreement that we added, dropped or changed some things. We promised to love each other but we don't recall promising not to ever have sex with anyone but each other -- even if we did assume it. For us right now, sexual exclusivity is an area where we are discussing our assumptions with the possibility of renegotiating our
promises and expectations.
Furthermore, even though we love sex and find it to be our favorite form of fun and entertainment, sex isn't the thing that makes our marriage relationship stand apart from our other relationships because there have been several stretches when we didn't have sex (one of them for several years) never-the-less, we were still married and we still loved each other (usually). We may have hated each other but we still loved each other. Because of various factors such as "the baby years", work, stress, fatigue, immaturity, protracted sickness, mid-life crisis most recently, or unchecked anger and other emotions, etc... because of these we periodically have had a sexless marriage. Sometimes there was no end to sexlessness in sight. We would both be deeply hurt if the other of us had an affair. We'd be hurt by far less than that because it would be a violation of our trust and confidence. But if we gave each other permission to do more with someone else (perhaps even have sex with them) we can't imagine that we would or could ever love each other less. If we started freely sharing each other with others we cant imagine our relationship would be different (at least in a negative way.
Your friends make it sound like some kind of progression of your friendship. That we are such good friends that we should share everything with each other...
That sounds worse when you say it. But basically you're right about this point.
...but should you?
Great question! Actually that's been our question on this sight all along. In our thinking "should" is usually sort of a moral term. Our sense of morals and values aren't offended...but we don't necessarily always fully trust our own senses. If it is just fun we're looking for then by all means we "should". Your question leads our discussion from "should we" to "is it wise?" Is there a trade off where for any fun you get up front there is a price to pay later in marriage difficulty? Is there some cost analysis we could do to determine if this is worth it. Would swinging with our friends for sure hurt us or our marriage our our friendship? We think no it wouldn't... but there are many voices and antidotal claims that disagree.
Will it make you closer friends but less closer as a couple? Where do the boundaries come in?
We think it would make us closer friends without hurting us individually or damaging our marriage. But we may be just fooling ourselves and talking us into trying something we are becoming more interested in trying. As for the boundaries -- the boundary would be a circle that encompasses the four of us.
I totally understand the whole sexual tension which can be fun. I have been married to my husband for 18 years and sex can become routine so finding ways to add some spice will enhance it.
Both we and our friends are going on 26 years of marriage. We've all 4 done lots of things to spice up our sex lives.
But is sharing your spouse with your best friend the answer? There is alot of emotions that go on here.
That is what we are trying to figure out. A lot of the emotions feel very exciting and good.
Thanks again,
M&M
Hitched Podcast
Episode 98: Get Your Marriage Out of the Fight Club
Dr. Noelle Nelson discusses how anger can inhibit your problem solving skills that keep you and your spouse fighting. Also, be sure to find out who won the Toad to Prince contest visit www.toadtoprince.com. For more go to www.hitchedmag.com© 2009 Created by hitched
